[Poll Suggestion] Crafting System

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Poll: What do you think about a build point system as described?

Poll ended at February 26th, 2022, 5:32 pm

I like it
12
52%
I do not like it
8
35%
I would change X (describe below)
3
13%
 
Total votes: 23

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Wolf
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Re: [Poll Suggestion] Crafting System

Post by Wolf »

Gegenwart wrote: February 22nd, 2022, 8:16 pm Right, but the team controls the nodes. If success rates were increased spawns could be modified to compensate and shift the balance of player experience to getting the resources to craft, rather than grinding the craft itself.
Correct, but now you're just making it even more difficult for people who aren't logged in all the time, or who know where the resources spawn and know when to login to harvest the next batch of cotton/flax, to get any of the resources.

We already have people who have the spawns down to a science, I watch them login daily, and either solo if it's safe like cotton/flax, or in a small group go and hit every copper/coal node, or every pine node, every day. Then do their crafting, and log off, because there is no reason they need anyone's help, they can just go gather it all, process it all, and be done, every single day.
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Re: [Poll Suggestion] Crafting System

Post by Wolf »

I think the biggest issue that I see here with people on each side of this argument.

Cooks and Leatherworkers don't like the idea of a build point system, because as it stands, they can pretty effortlessly get as much resources as they want, to make what they want, and failure is more of a minor hurdle than a smack in the face.

Blacksmiths and Woodworkers, failure means the difference between making anything that day or nothing at all.

Not to mention it's easy to carry 100 cotton back to town and fail 50% of the time to make bolts of cloth, or carry 100 wheat back to town and fail 50% of the time you still have some finished product.

Woodworking, you go out and collect ALL the pine nodes that grew that day, 1 person gets 24-30 (at 10lb ea) pine, that usually resulting in 10-16 planks, which again results in 1-2 pine arrow shafts, resulting in 0-1 pine arrows.

Blacksmithing, you have to carry back 2-3 copper nodes, and 2-3 coal nodes, each giving 10-15 copper/coal. Each weighing 10lbs, this will make you maybe 15-25 ingots, which will result in maybe succeeding at making 1-2 items per day.

So when you're saying the current system is "great" it just needs "minor changes" maybe you're only looking at YOUR craft, but try to talk to some crafters from other crafts and realize why this might be beneficial for the crafting system as a whole.
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Re: [Poll Suggestion] Crafting System

Post by Gegenwart »

Wolf wrote: February 22nd, 2022, 8:25 pm Correct, but now you're just making it even more difficult for people who aren't logged in all the time, or who know where the resources spawn and know when to login to harvest the next batch of cotton/flax, to get any of the resources.

We already have people who have the spawns down to a science, I watch them login daily, and either solo if it's safe like cotton/flax, or in a small group go and hit every copper/coal node, or every pine node, every day. Then do their crafting, and log off, because there is no reason they need anyone's help, they can just go gather it all, process it all, and be done, every single day.
Sure, but the proposal made by Jval - with which I was agreeing - assumes that success rates are higher and Crafting XP is gone. I don't know what the motivation is for this kind of play but it seems plausible its one (or both) of those. If Crafting XP is still in, then the motivation for optimizing play for Crafting XP won't change either.
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Re: [Poll Suggestion] Crafting System

Post by Wolf »

Gegenwart wrote: February 22nd, 2022, 9:35 pm
Wolf wrote: February 22nd, 2022, 8:25 pm Correct, but now you're just making it even more difficult for people who aren't logged in all the time, or who know where the resources spawn and know when to login to harvest the next batch of cotton/flax, to get any of the resources.

We already have people who have the spawns down to a science, I watch them login daily, and either solo if it's safe like cotton/flax, or in a small group go and hit every copper/coal node, or every pine node, every day. Then do their crafting, and log off, because there is no reason they need anyone's help, they can just go gather it all, process it all, and be done, every single day.
Sure, but the proposal made by Jval - with which I was agreeing - assumes that success rates are higher and Crafting XP is gone. I don't know what the motivation is for this kind of play but it seems plausible its one (or both) of those. If Crafting XP is still in, then the motivation for optimizing play for Crafting XP won't change either.
Correct, but now you just have no scarcity, you don't want to make it so that they can make enough hide armor, chain shirts, weapons, etc... they want with almost no difficulty it takes the struggle out of it.
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Re: [Poll Suggestion] Crafting System

Post by Jval »

Compare the mechanics:

Right now:
Must craft to gain craft XP.
So gather ALL resources
... sharing is discouraged

With BPs:
Must craft to gain craft XP.
So gather ALL resources (up to my BP limit)
... sharing is discouraged (unless my BPs are empty AND I'm full)

Instead, remove Craft XP:
Only craft when there is a reason to do so.
Only gather when preparing for current or expected need.
... sharing is discouraged (except to equal or better crafters).

Instead, remove Craft XP and Multiply Reliability:
Only craft when there is a reason to do so.
Only gather when preparing for current or expected need.
... sharing is encouraged (everyone can do something reliably).
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Re: [Poll Suggestion] Crafting System

Post by Wolf »

Jval wrote: February 22nd, 2022, 9:53 pm Compare the mechanics:

Right now:
Must craft to gain craft XP.
So gather ALL resources
... sharing is discouraged

With BPs:
Must craft to gain craft XP.
So gather ALL resources (up to my BP limit)
... sharing is discouraged (unless my BPs are empty AND I'm full)

Instead, remove Craft XP:
Only craft when there is a reason to do so.
Only gather when preparing for current or expected need.
... sharing is discouraged (except to equal or better crafters).

Instead, remove Craft XP and Multiply Reliability:
Only craft when there is a reason to do so.
Only gather when preparing for current or expected need.
... sharing is encouraged (everyone can do something reliably).


Sharing would be encouraged, because you would hit your BP wall quickly, and you'd want someone to make your planks for you so you can make the bows. I don't know why you wouldn't want to spread the work load to maximize your BP for the day?

The issue with removing crafting XP, and allowing more success, you remove scarcity from anything, now if someone wants armor, they get handed armor, if they want food, there is always food and someone is storing enough wheat in their bag that even if there is a shortage the DMs put for any reason, the scarcity isn't even an issue.

Craft XP isn't a bad mechanic, people like the idea of getting a "ding" like a level up, and with Haze the best chance you have for that is a crafting Ding most of the time. But it doesn't matter how much you want that XP, if you can only craft X amount a day, it's better to share the days resources because tomorrow there will always be more, but today you have excess that you can give to someone so they can get their happy "ding" too.
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Re: [Poll Suggestion] Crafting System

Post by Gegenwart »

Wolf wrote: February 22nd, 2022, 9:51 pm Correct, but now you just have no scarcity, you don't want to make it so that they can make enough hide armor, chain shirts, weapons, etc... they want with almost no difficulty it takes the struggle out of it.
Agreed, but again, this could be ameliorated by making it harder to get those resources within the existing framework. More mobs, changed locations, and so on sound like a worthwhile shakeup anyway with the play patterns you're describing.
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Re: [Poll Suggestion] Crafting System

Post by Wolf »

Gegenwart wrote: February 22nd, 2022, 10:04 pm
Wolf wrote: February 22nd, 2022, 9:51 pm Correct, but now you just have no scarcity, you don't want to make it so that they can make enough hide armor, chain shirts, weapons, etc... they want with almost no difficulty it takes the struggle out of it.
Agreed, but again, this could be ameliorated by making it harder to get those resources within the existing framework. More mobs, changed locations, and so on sound like a worthwhile shakeup anyway with the play patterns you're describing.
All that does is increase difficulty for new players trying to get into it. If we had a fixed server pop and never a new group or new person who wanted to try a new thing, but now they have all these things continually added in the way, and monsters trying to kill them just to get good at Tier 1 crafting, they will quickly get discouraged.

Tier 1 crafting products should be easy to find, so anyone can find them, and process them, but something besides a 55% failure rate, needs to be done to prevent those who can game the system, from ruining it for the others.

You can start having monster spawns / variable spawning / etc... on Tier 2 + crafting, but Tier 1 should let anyone dip their toes into crafting and get a feel for it, without flooding the market with stuff and keeping supplies difficult.
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Re: [Poll Suggestion] Crafting System

Post by Jval »

You misunderstand: not increased reliability, multiplied reliability.
Overall chances of success don't change... instead easy is EASY, hard is HARD.
That way, only a master does the hard stuff but can trust his apprentices to do the easy stuff.
I've explained how that works before, it's just math.

Is a BP system better than what we have? Yes
Is a BP system an overhaul that will fix crafting? No
Should we do BP as the FINAL OVERHAUL? No

If it's going to be the final overhaul, make sure it will work in all cases before you do it.
A BP system makes it so that a single crafter can't take and do everything himself.
But, it's just a divisor.
How many crafters does it take to destroy the world?
High BPs... not that many. Two? Three?
Low BPs... more, but they individually can't make anything.

The problem is that no matter how low you go, a crafter will logically destroy everything they touch.
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Re: [Poll Suggestion] Crafting System

Post by Wolf »

Jval wrote: February 22nd, 2022, 10:30 pm You misunderstand: not increased reliability, multiplied reliability.
Overall chances of success don't change... instead easy is EASY, hard is HARD.
That way, only a master does the hard stuff but can trust his apprentices to do the easy stuff.
I've explained how that works before, it's just math.

Is a BP system better than what we have? Yes
Is a BP system an overhaul that will fix crafting? No
Should we do BP as the FINAL OVERHAUL? No

If it's going to be the final overhaul, make sure it will work in all cases before you do it.
A BP system makes it so that a single crafter can't take and do everything himself.
But, it's just a divisor.
How many crafters does it take to destroy the world?
High BPs... not that many. Two? Three?
Low BPs... more, but they individually can't make anything.

The problem is that no matter how low you go, a crafter will logically destroy everything they touch.
After reading your suggestion in the megathread, I understand what you're trying to do, but limiting crafting behind the level up mechanic, and there is no way "IC" to learn a craft, can quickly and easily bum people out. People want to be able to learn things, and do things, not just be stuck in what they picked at character creation and maybe getting 1 point of crafting knowledge at level up in 3 months isn't necessarily fun.

Not to mention if you make crafting skills that people apply points to, it makes things like rogues craft monkeys too, when that doesn't make a ton of sense.

Just my opinion but crafting should not be a level up skill, in a low level server environment.
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Re: [Poll Suggestion] Crafting System

Post by Titov »

How will this affect players that do not log in everyday? If a player does not log in for 2 months, will they have 300 BP to work with, or will it be 50?
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Re: [Poll Suggestion] Crafting System

Post by Jval »

After reading your suggestion in the megathread, I understand what you're trying to do, but limiting crafting behind the level up mechanic, and there is no way "IC" to learn a craft, can quickly and easily bum people out. People want to be able to learn things, and do things, not just be stuck in what they picked at character creation and maybe getting 1 point of crafting knowledge at level up in 3 months isn't necessarily fun.

Not to mention if you make crafting skills that people apply points to, it makes things like rogues craft monkeys too, when that doesn't make a ton of sense.

Just my opinion but crafting should not be a level up skill, in a low level server environment.
Yep, that's the problem - and I agree that it's different than the current philosophy.
Either you learn by doing (and destroying), or you don't.
If we must go this route, maybe provide a way to practice WITHOUT destroying materials?
Like "!craft Cooking" -> to practice cooking without destroying stuff
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Re: [Poll Suggestion] Crafting System

Post by Wolf »

Titov wrote: February 23rd, 2022, 2:51 am How will this affect players that do not log in everyday? If a player does not log in for 2 months, will they have 300 BP to work with, or will it be 50?
I don't think it should stack for days and day, but I could see possibly allowing it to stack up to 2 days worth to not penalize players who don't login daily, without allowing someone to login once a week and bust out a weeks crafts in 5 minutes.
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Re: [Poll Suggestion] Crafting System

Post by GoreQueen »

Change crafting from levels 1-10 to 1-25 even out the xp needed to level reducing the ridiculous grind for 1 point. More points, less fails.

Add big batch crafting, one by one is tedious and chains people to a crafting station for extended periods of time.

Some recipe tweaks, glass vials should have a small chance to break or not at all.

Tree's should take a lot longer to chop down, but provide a lot more wood, similar to mining. More materials in general.

Deer hides should provide more materials as well.

Use the other animal fur's and parts to craft items with small bonuses. (Wolverine fur boots with +1 taunt or something)

Add brewing, make liquor, beer, potions.
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Re: [Poll Suggestion] Crafting System

Post by Wolf »

GoreQueen wrote: February 25th, 2022, 8:19 pm Change crafting from levels 1-10 to 1-25 even out the xp needed to level reducing the ridiculous grind for 1 point. More points, less fails.

Add big batch crafting, one by one is tedious and chains people to a crafting station for extended periods of time.

Some recipe tweaks, glass vials should have a small chance to break or not at all.

Tree's should take a lot longer to chop down, but provide a lot more wood, similar to mining. More materials in general.

Deer hides should provide more materials as well.

Use the other animal fur's and parts to craft items with small bonuses. (Wolverine fur boots with +1 taunt or something)

Add brewing, make liquor, beer, potions.
Love these ideas but to clarify crafting is not 1-10, there is no max level in crafting currently, being ECL 10 makes you "Adept" but you're still a long way away from being a master crafter.
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Re: [Poll Suggestion] Crafting System

Post by GoreQueen »

Ah, okay, so then I would recommend making the early levels much easier to progress, the master levels should be where the majority of the grind is. One thing I forgot to add is basic crafting blueprints should be sold at the NPC merchants for a few coins, just the very basic one's to get someone started.
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Re: [Poll Suggestion] Crafting System

Post by Wereslug »

Late to the party but I'd like to recommend that when a PC harvests an item, that PC's name is stored as a local variable on the harvesting point for a random number of hours. If the PC's name is on the harvest point it should not work for them. Hopefully this will disrupt "clockwork" harvesting as described earlier in the thread.
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Re: [Poll Suggestion] Crafting System

Post by Jval »

Good point Wereslug. Maybe instead of building points, we should have "harvesting points".

If you prevented one person from cutting all the wood AND harvesting all the fields AND taking all the copper and coal, that would probably make a big difference. In fact, it might solve most of the current crafting problem all at once. It would also encourage people to bring along others to "carry" for them.
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Re: [Poll Suggestion] Crafting System

Post by Ragnarok »

Given that there is no significance of opinion to either side, we will not be implementing the BP approach at this time.
We will go with other means to modify the crafting system at this stage and will revisit the idea in the future.

Closing this one for now.
Thank you for the feedback.
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