PERMADEATH

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Irishbastard
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PERMADEATH

Post by Irishbastard »

Permadeath here is starting to feel superficial. Don't go throwing cow pies at me just yet...

From what I can remember the fear of death was VERY real in the original Haze. One wrong move (just like IRL) you're dead. Simple as that. It was incredibly unforgiving, but that's what I LOVED about it.

I'm losing that fear and now it's become more of a routine. Big battle, generally no one dies, people get downed, they run off to rest quickly then run right back out into the heat of battle (which makes no RP sense), healers use their spells then they rest up for some more healing spells (resting needs some nerfing imo). Rinse and repeat. I feel this all immersion draining.

Please do not take anything I say the wrong way. I'm simply just being open and honest and I do not think this is a player/dm problem but more of a culture thing. Maybe I should stop comparing this generation of Haze to the past ones. But that's incredibly hard to do lol

Anyway, if Narmo died, he dies. I'm here for the story and the rush. Sometimes I'm sitting here wishing people would die (myself included) to bring back that gritty and raw feeling Haze once had for me.

I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts.
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Chops
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Post by Chops »

I agree and I don't.

Eminence was like as you describe. I think it was -10 and you die.

It got to the point where so many characters kept dying that a lot of players got fed up and left because no plot or roleplay could effectively take hold and develop since the next time you logged on you heard the person you'd begun a story with was dead. We lost a sizeable portion of the players to that and soon after Eminence was shut down.

I agree though with the feeling that there are many characters who should be dead maybe ten times over. It was almost an in character meme with characters like Malrom and later Meyer.

It is to the point now where I ramp up the fear my character feels in certain situations so at least someone isn't just charging in gung-ho because they know that there's fifteen healing kits on hand should they fall.

Making a change to this system would have to be heavily debated. Changes to permadeath could kill the server. If people die as often as they did on Eminence, most people will leave and play on a server where they can play out their characters stories.
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Jval
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Re: PERMADEATH

Post by Jval »

I feel the same way. Yes and no.

I desperately want a server where people respect death and danger. It breeds good role-play and serious situations. Trying to play a realistic person on most servers is discouraged to the point where you will be shunned for your RP.

At the same time, getting to know characters and then watching them die around me is discouraging. Sometimes, I really get a feel for someone and then they disappear. Then, I have to learn their new character and adjust.

Haze right now is the best balance between these two that I've ever seen.
The only problem I see right now is how easy it is to "get back up again" if someone helps you.
If the mechanics on that were more difficult, DMs could safely tone down the difficulty without reducing the fear.
The problem is that all such mechanics (and challenges) are intertwined.
If you change one thing, others MUST change, or you break the balance.
If it was harder to get people up, that DM event last night would have killed half the town.

My knee-jerk reactions (take it with a big grain of salt):
1) Change heal kits and healing so it DOESN'T stabilize you... you have to keep treating until they stabilize
2) In return, tone down the scale of DM events... otherwise, you will kill everybody (it's really hard to balance, I know!)
3) Provide some easy areas where people can adventure for small rewards at small risk
So easy that an inexperienced player with a badly designed character can still win
But not worth it to the more experienced players/characters to discourage farming
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Re: PERMADEATH

Post by Gegenwart »

I have some thoughts to share on this, although I'm probably in a similar boat to IB comparing things to past versions. Nothing here is intended as a slight to any particular player, just general observations based on my own experience.

First, bluntly, I suspect everyone is a little gunshy this time around. I have spent a lot of time DMing permadeath PWs and between the glitches, dumb engine problems, and just plain mistakes you make (whether anyone notices or not) it’s hard for a DM not to feel they've done something wrong by someone who played well and whose RP you might like. It isn't any easier if you think they might just leave. However, this requires some give and take from both sides. You need players to get on board with the idea that 'winning' Haze can mean having a good time losing. At the same time, nobody likes to die in a random attack or to a mob on a transition, but a death from a DM spawn where you've chosen to put yourself in danger is a good thing. It takes careful thought and organization on the part of a DM to make sure deaths feel consequential and like the right ending to a story though.

Second, other players feel less lethal. I had a situation yesterday where, in past versions, the other PC would have set lethal and killed my character. It would have been justifiable to a DM and that would have been that. Actions have consequences, characters die, plots change, server goes on. I'm happy to roll with it with some heavy injury RP and use it as a chance to draw the character down more slowly but it felt a lot less real to me and I suspect less immersive for other players.

Third, I think effectively removing Clerics from play has actually made healing magic more accessible. A Bard is probably going to heal whoever but there were great moments in the past where Clerics would just refuse to heal some people. Although healing was available, it felt less accessible. We have some great Bard players and I’m not trying to have a go at the quality of their play with this, but it definitely feels like a negative unintended consequence of restricting divine classes in the way they have been is that healing magic has less consequence attached. I think Jval has made some great points above about healing kits so I'll leave that alone but it seems closely related.

Anyway, this is a lot of words to say that I don't think the permadeath system itself is the problem. -25 is a good fix to random, pointless deaths. But there are other issues around it that contribute to making things feel less immediately dangerous. As Chops says, its a very fine balancing act, but its one worth trying to get right.

Most importantly, be nice to your DMs and excellent to each other OOC. Great play means conflict and consequence but not taking it too seriously helps make it a lot more fun.
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GoreQueen
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Re: PERMADEATH

Post by GoreQueen »

What about an injury system? Depending on how low into the negatives a player drops, they would receive an injury of increasing severity. Something like -1 to -10 you receive a Badly Sprained ankle token, (-2 AC, -10% Speed, -2 DEX).
You could then add medical items to counter the injuries, for something like a sprained ankle you need a salve and rest.

I think something like this would add an extra layer, it would help guide roleplay for injuries and vulenerability. It could also help adding another avenue for players to focus, a dedicated medic for example. Just bouncing some ideas.
calixdenaue
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Re: PERMADEATH

Post by calixdenaue »

Same line as GoreQueen said, I think if maybe anytime you got taken out, there was a percentile chance of a serious injury might make folks slow up a little bit but also still go for things.

Death is all well and good, but death isn't the only thing that happens, and having something that could aid in helping folks think of possible consequences for actions wouldn't be a bad idea in my opinon.
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Elena
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Re: PERMADEATH

Post by Elena »

As someone who hasn't played on the original Haze Server, I cannot compare it to how it was. But what it feels like ot me:

I don't feel that permadeath is superficial here. On the contrary, many characters have already died and it has left its mark. There is no trace of superficiality in my opinion.

But what I do find strange is when someone is wounded "near death" and then engages in combat again without magical healing. Everyone should act with some kind of common sense and then just withdraw and not simply rest and come back in. That's absurd.
I feel differently after magical healing, but even then I'd think twice about re-exposing myself to a hazard that might just as easily have killed me in the first place: So.. MAYBE: If you have been "near death", for the next 1 IG hour, you take double damage, again near death, triple damage, and so on. So, this might very well end your life immediately, if you get critical hit again....
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invictus
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Re: PERMADEATH

Post by invictus »

This is certainly something I've been thinking about, so I appreciate you starting the discussion.

The following is a work in progress: https://app.hex.tech/399c4a29-5b7f-4f70 ... 8c1/latest

As you can see, there aren't -that- many deaths per day/week. Eminence had a bit more per week if I remember correctly (we lost that data). On the other hand, 7 people dying out of a population of ~60 isn't small, really.

If you have a 10% chance of dying each week, you'll probably live for ~6 weeks. There's probably some biases here...certain people are more reckless than others.

So, I don't have a firm answer yet. Interested to read and learn more player's thoughts.
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Wolf
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Re: PERMADEATH

Post by Wolf »

I think the latest changes to bleeding, the 2 step process to stabilize, and the -10 to AC will greatly assist many of the concerns here about people getting up and re-joining the fight instantly, but it isn't a permanent debuff to penalize front line fighters for being the most likely ones to go unconscious more often.

I am excited to see it in the next DM event to see how it goes.
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